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Post by Drum on Jul 2, 2024 1:15:40 GMT
So, I picked up another unique vintage Tilley hat purely for its significance as a hat dating tool. (I guess we can just have the Tilley Museum here at my house. lol) Fortunately for me, the owners of these old Tilleys are not nearly as impressed with their value as the owners of new Tilley hats can be. ;p Anyway, the reason this hat caught my eye is that it has a unique, possibly prototypical, crown label AND a crown pocket without a Velcro closure. The fact that the pocket contained ‘88-‘89 dates on the catalog offer as well as first version brag tags is the missing link, in a way. Hear me out; The earliest Tilley hats had no flotation and thus, no crown pockets. The first crown pockets appear at some point in the early 80’s, possibly post-1983, and these pockets seem to be solely designed to hold the disc of flotation foam as the pockets are just sleeves with no Velcro closure. At around the same time that Tilley began using crown labels, they added a Velcro closure for this pocket and also made it a place the plastic bag holding the manual and brag tags. Until this hat, with its unique crown label, I have not seen a Tilley hat with a crown label and no Velcro closure. All Of this data leads me to the hypothesis that THIS hat is one of the first Tilley hats to receive a crown label. Better still, inside this unsecured, unvelcro’d pocket is an ad for a catalog dated ‘88-‘89. (See photo). Let’s assume, for logical purposes, that the presence of this ad, means that the earliest that this hat was made/sold was between the end of 1988 and the beginning of 1989. Probably this particular ad was inserted into all Tilley hats until a new catalog was released, presumably in 1990. If all this speculation and educated guessing is correct, then this would mean that the first crown labels began appearing in Tilley hats in approximately 1987. Thus, any hat with a that second version of the crown label (with the 900 Don Mills address) are almost certainly from 1988-ish. Subsequent editions of the crown label included the 900 Don Mills Rd. address until 2018. Alright, enough words, here are some pics. First, the hat I found and and the catalog ad. Then, last pics is an example of an older T3 (with tags and no crown label) and a later T3 with the more common “first” crown label and Velcro enclosure. Hit me up with any questions or comments. And thanks, I already know that I am crazy to care enough to write all this down. Lol |
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Post by NeilC on Jul 2, 2024 4:59:05 GMT
OK, that crown label looks so different and interesting.
I agree that this is probably a very early or first run Crown label.
You have a good eye for catching these cool hats!!!
PS. What size was that hat?
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Post by Drum on Jul 2, 2024 11:26:22 GMT
This hat is a 7 1/2. I will report on condition when it arrives. So I went back and rechecked some of the known dates from the various tellings of the Tilley story. It would appear that AT obtained the 900 Don Mills address in 1987, but it would seem clear that some time passed before he considered using that space as a retail sales location. This might explain why some of the earliest crown labels did not include any mention of a physical address. Find myself wondering if maybe the crown label here, which obviously includes the 900 Don Mills address, was followed by crown labels that only include phone numbers and NO address. I’ve read descriptions, including in Nancy Beal’s book, about that period immediately after obtaining 900 Don Mills Rd as a factory/office location when interested people would track Tilley down to that address even before there was any welcoming signage or any dedicated retail space at all. Could Alex have regretted adding the address to the earliest crown labels (like this one) and then switched to the crown labels with ONLY telephone numbers until later, when he had finally converted 900 Don Mills Rd into Tilley Endurables world HQ with all the statues and the like? Consider the fact, also described in Ms. Beal’s book, that Alex Tilley became indebted to the interior decorator who wound up accepting half ownership of Tilley as repayment after decorating the 900 Don Mills location, possibly for retail purposes. This might explain why the original crown labels (like this one?) which DID include the address, subsequently had the address removed and then, later, re-added to the text. Maybe I’m just over-using my imagination but the next person who meets Alex should ask him about the crown label progression.  |
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Post by NeilC on Jul 2, 2024 15:06:25 GMT
Good idea!!!
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Post by NeilC on Jul 2, 2024 15:08:02 GMT
This hat is a 7 1/2. I will report on condition when it arrives. So I went back and rechecked some of the known dates from the various tellings of the Tilley story. It would appear that AT obtained the 900 Don Mills address in 1987, but it would seem clear that some time passed before he considered using that space as a retail sales location. This might explain why some of the earliest crown labels did not include any mention of a physical address. Find myself wondering if maybe the crown label here, which obviously includes the 900 Don Mills address, was followed by crown labels that only include phone numbers and NO address. I’ve read descriptions, including in Nancy Beal’s book, about that period immediately after obtaining 900 Don Mills Rd as a factory/office location when interested people would track Tilley down to that address even before there was any welcoming signage or any dedicated retail space at all. Could Alex have regretted adding the address to the earliest crown labels (like this one) and then switched to the crown labels with ONLY telephone numbers until later, when he had finally converted 900 Don Mills Rd into Tilley Endurables world HQ with all the statues and the like? Consider the fact, also described in Ms. Beal’s book, that Alex Tilley became indebted to the interior decorator who wound up accepting half ownership of Tilley as repayment after decorating the 900 Don Mills location, possibly for retail purposes. This might explain why the original crown labels (like this one?) which DID include the address, subsequently had the address removed and then, later, re-added to the text. Maybe I’m just over-using my imagination but the next person who meets Alex should ask him about the crown label progression. It is interesting that the crown label looks like nothing else they have eve made. I agree this maybe a prototype label. |
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Post by Drum on Jul 3, 2024 16:19:59 GMT
After kicking through my notes and pics gathered, I’ve come to the conclusion that this T3 and it’s unique label was manufactured in late 1987, or possibly early ‘88. Points: - The flotation pocket was added before the T3 was released in 1986 - The first Tilley catalog (described as “priceless” and written exclusively by Alex Tilley) was created in 1986-7. - The first T3’s had no crown labels, only 2nd ver. tags with no address. (Earliest tags included the 1262 address) - All the Tilley hats I’ve seen with crown labels also have Velcro strip closures on the pocket, except this one. - Tilley moved operations to 900 Don Mills Rd in 1987 but did not have a retail space there until late 1988, at the earliest. - Tilley’s second catalog was created and released in 1988. (Did he write it all himself or did he hire someone?) - The catalog ad found inside the pocket of this T3 depicts a 1988-89 catalog. - The brag tags friend inside the pocket are earliest brag tag version, circa 1986-7 Speculation: Several accounts I’ve read describe customers arriving at 900 Don Mills Rd. before there was retail space there or even any obvious signage. I suspect the label on this hat was created during a thin span of time between the date that Tilley obtained the 900 Don Mills location and before he realized that people would show up and expect to be able to buy hats there. Further, I suspect this factored into the decision to exclude any address from the first batch of crown labels and only include telephone numbers. Thereafter, when the retail space at Don Mills was ready to receive, the crown label was changed, once again, to include the 900 Don Mills Rd address. Conclusion: The crown label on this hat may well be prototypical and it was made in 1987. The hat was also made in 1987 in light of the early snap components and the lack of Velcro on the pocket. This begs the question of why there would be an ad in the crown pocket for a 1988-89 catalog. It would seem natural to me that, by the end of 1987, Tilley and Co were would be working on the 1988 catalog sufficient to put into a hat in late ‘87 or, at least, by early 1988. Once we succeed in finding copies of the first catalog and, maybe even this 1988-89 catalog, some more clues therein will help solve this, I think. I will update when this finally arrives and I can examine the other side of that catalog ad.  one additional note: “minutieusement” is how the French say “persnicketiness” |
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Post by NeilC on Jul 3, 2024 19:53:37 GMT
Conclusion: The crown label on this hat may well be prototypical and it was made in 1987. The hat was also made in 1987 in light of the early snap components and the lack of Velcro on the pocket. This begs the question of why there would be an ad in the crown pocket for a 1988-89 catalog. It would seem natural to me that, by the end of 1987, Tilley and Co were would be working on the 1988 catalog sufficient to put into a hat in late ‘87 or, at least, by early 1988. Once we succeed in finding copies of the first catalog and, maybe even this 1988-89 catalog, some more clues therein will help solve this, I think. I will update when this finally arrives and I can examine the other side of that catalog ad. one additional note: “minutieusement” is how the French say “persnicketiness” It will be interesting to see what is in that catalog |
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Post by Drum on Jul 3, 2024 22:29:30 GMT
I sent a suggestion to Tilley through their website to post their old catalogs.  |
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Post by NeilC on Jul 4, 2024 4:08:50 GMT
I sent a suggestion to Tilley through their website to post their old catalogs. I will do the same thing Strength in numbers |
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Post by Drum on Jul 5, 2024 16:36:41 GMT
Update on this hat, now received. First off, confirmed that the crown pocket here has no Velcro, unlike every other labeled crown pocket I’ve ever examined. This is, without question, the only Tilley crown label I’ve ever seen that is “shiny”. It’s almost like silk or satin or something. It’s hard to tell, and I’m no textile expert, but the letters appear to have been printed on to this material. Unlike the regular crown labels where it’s clear that the letters are woven into the patch. These might be woven too, but to my eye, they look printed. In addition to the unique material, the text of this patch (“I wrote it, you’ll love it… it’s free… and possibly priceless! -Alex Tilley”) I’ve never seen before. Kinda makes me wonder if a lawyer rejected the prototype or something. Lol Finally, this hat is in absolutely brand new condition. Not a stain on it anywhere! It looks unworn, but alas, it does smell like the intense scent beads people throw in their laundry now. Does NOT appear to have ever been washed but that sickly sweet smell is perceivable at some distance. In my experience, this could have happened simply by being in the same house as those scent beads or whatever they are called. (Ive purchased sunglasses on eBay that have and retain that stench despite the absence of any fabric whatsoever.) Oh and one more weird note: This hat is sized 7 1/2, with a band circumference of 23 1/2” and 60.5cm… and it fits me perfectly? What the hell?!? lol! Now anyone with google will tell you that 23 1/2” more like 59.5 cm. Another example of Tilley trying to force people to buy larger hats than they think they need, I guess. I will post up about the documentation included in the brag tags thread on the documentation sub forum. d Attachments:
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Post by NeilC on Jul 6, 2024 15:24:36 GMT
Oh and one more weird note: This hat is sized 7 1/2, with a band circumference of 23 1/2” and 60.5cm… and it fits me perfectly? What the hell?!? lol! Now anyone with google will tell you that 23 1/2” more like 59.5 cm. Another example of Tilley trying to force people to buy larger hats than they think they need, I guess. Awesome that the hat fits you!!! |
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Post by Drum on Jul 6, 2024 18:12:47 GMT
Oh and one more weird note: This hat is sized 7 1/2, with a band circumference of 23 1/2” and 60.5cm… and it fits me perfectly? What the hell?!? lol! Now anyone with google will tell you that 23 1/2” more like 59.5 cm. Another example of Tilley trying to force people to buy larger hats than they think they need, I guess. Awesome that the hat fits you!!! It really underscores the handmade-ness of these early hats. I suspect that as Tilley’s production needs increased, more and more standardization and possibly automatization were required to meet demands. One benefit of all that is likely to be more predictable sizing. Fit-wise, this hat feels similar to my 1990’s T5 in 7 3/4, washed many times and definitely pre-shrunk. As soft and loose as this hat feels, I’m beginning to wonder if it really IS some sort of production anomaly or prototype. Could this hat be made from a different, not pre-shrunk, fabric? Another thing… this hat does not seem to be as “white” as other pristine early T3’s I’ve examined. It’s got a more “natural” color that seems more hemp like than cotton duck. There is definitely something weird about this hat. |
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Post by NeilC on Jul 7, 2024 4:37:24 GMT
As soft and loose as this hat feels, I’m beginning to wonder if it really IS some sort of production anomaly or prototype. Could this hat be made from a different, not pre-shrunk, fabric? Another thing… this hat does not seem to be as “white” as other pristine early T3’s I’ve examined. It’s got a more “natural” color that seems more hemp like than cotton duck. There is definitely something weird about this hat. I kind of noticed that the color was a little off white. I assumed that it was due to age. The label seems to be white and almost a silk material. |
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Post by Drum on Jul 16, 2024 0:39:07 GMT
In the ongoing reportage on this weird hat, I think have it figured why the “silky” label was abandoned. It feels weird against bare skin and, gets damp much more quickly than the production versions. Further, the location of the Tilley crown label puts it in direct conflict with the all Too typical demon known world wide as “male pattern baldness”. The silky label is too absorbent and, perhaps a bit stifling to the epidermis!
Now this is an extreme shame because this goofy snap hat has a really really nice fit for me, despite the fact that, at 7 1/2, it is two full sizes smaller than the size of Tilley I’ve been wearing for more than 20 years.
Which brings me to my next observations: regarding hat fit, vintage hats are TRICKY to fit without actually trying them. The pre-Y2K cotton hats were, I think, intentionally made over large because they knew that the hats would shrink to fit the owner’s head. Once they switched to nylon dominated designs, this practice of over sizing became unnecessary and so the models were adjusted accordingly.
Pribably should be the subject of its own post, if I haven’t started that one already. I’d better check. lol
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Post by NeilC on Jul 16, 2024 4:09:48 GMT
In the ongoing reportage on this weird hat, I think have it figured why the “silky” label was abandoned. It feels weird against bare skin and, gets damp much more quickly than the production versions. Further, the location of the Tilley crown label puts it in direct conflict with the all Too typical demon known world wide as “male pattern baldness”. The silky label is too absorbent and, perhaps a bit stifling to the epidermis! That totally makes sence why they would replace that label with a cotton version. I bet the silk will change color after a while. |
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